Weekly Discussion from Omega Alpha: Natural Horsemanship

I think if you have the energy, time, and program, and finances, it is probably great. I don't think that it has to be done in order to have a good relationship with your horse, or to make a top level event horse. There are MANY out there who do it without that method and are as succesful. I also didn't understand the refrence to straight knee's jumping. I thought you never want to stand in your stirrups....? So i guess everyone has thier own way of doing things. And your success on the playing field tells all. OCET has had a lot of success in past years. It works for them....and other stuff works for other's.

I would have to agree with above.
Some of this stuff works great for some people but other people have totally different perfectly safe and nice methods that work great as well.
As for me - it is not my cup of tea.

I think you take everything with a grain of salt. I like some of it, some of it I don't. We have a local 'natural horseman' where I am and we always laugh b/c he does the SAME thing to every horse and rider (aren't we all different?!! Try something new if it's not working! Instead he just yells "RIDE YOUR CIRLCE!!! to all his poor clients for 45 min at a time.....they look dizzy to me...anyway....)

So the video didn't show up when I checked the site, but PLEASE tell me this is it?! I found this once and peed my pants is glee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRmxcASjR5s

I also agree with the above two posters, natural horsemanship works great for the people who have the time to put the work in with their horses, my cousin actually does it with her hunters and gets great results, but she also works with them almost an hour a day before getting on and riding them. I use some of the techniques she showed me when I was working with my four-year old and we learned a lot about each other doing it. But when I tried it on my older horses both of them seemed to want to have nothing to do with it. I personally don't make a habit to go out and practice it regularly because for me I don't see the long term benefits of it, and my horses don't seem to like it either.

We were fortunate enough to have NH introduced to us at USPC Festival in 2007, then the PC region included a NH clinic at their regional meeting (with volunteered horse guinea pigs). That experience was the turning point for my daughter and her tremendously herdbound TB. I can't thank USPC enough for giving us the opportunity to experiece it and providing a valuable tool for the future.

If you are fortunate enough to attend WEG - check the NH stuff out in the Equine Village. Parelli and several others will be there (not all are equal I'll admit - but they do have a common objective). The Equine Village stuff is free (once you get there and pay for the day pass that is!)

My daughter used to refer to it as NH crap. But, this turn around event took less than an hour from the ground and everyone was happier, especially it seemed the horse. I have that event on video - but it's archived to VHS!
What I find frustating are the professionals who scoff at the use of the rope halter and favor leather and chains, yet they've never actually given NH much of a chance.

For the majority of us, who might be frustrated with a horse they wouldn't dare take on a trail ride, one they feel they HAVE to lunge first or one that bolts or bucks, give NH a try - it's all mostly about learning your horses language so that you can communicate more effectively with them.
I know the Parelli stuff is rather expensive - and without that Parelli certification, well, it's like the need for ICP - a measuring stick for an instructor's minimum qualifications - you could work with someone who just thinks they know NH (uh like your video).

So, does NH work? Absolutely. It doesn't have to progress to the point of doing tricks and such, but the basics are a must.

Hold on a minute! I think there is a tendency to lump all natural horsemanship and Parelli into one group. I don't practice Parelli and wouldn't, BUT natural horsemanship definitely translates to better results on the ground and in the saddle. I have children and my horses have to be safe for little people to be in pastures and the barn with me. Also, my daughter has a great pony who came to us with some stinky ground manners and wanted to buck her off. A little NH and he is great and she has won ribbons at every show she's ridden in (this is her first year). I can tell you it saves me time, money, and energy to practice this with my horses. Trailer loading, standing for the vet are all improved. But I still say the biggest difference is under saddle. When the horses respect you, they will do that much more for you. That being said, we still have a lot to learn.

I see this as fitting into the whole 'naturalistic' mumbo jumbo stuff... If you have the time to dedicate to it, so you see consistent results, great!; if not, carry on...but take it all with a grain of salt like karimarie26 said above.

Personally....I find a lot of it BS. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship...whether you slap a "Natural" in front of it or not. A lot of what works is just good basic common sense and what I would just call good horsemanship (not "Natural Horsemanship").....and not anything new or different. Rope halters have been used LONG before the term "Natural Horsemanship". Having your horse respect your space and have decent ground manners what I would expect from any horsman. So my focus is on what is good horsemanship and what are effective training tips and find those useful....and the rest of the crap is just marketing.

I think Natural Horsemanship" in its various forms is just another "tool" for horse training. Some of it is good, some is bad, depending on the hands that employ it.

I have a hard time with any NH teacher who insists you need to buy the special rope halter, stick and other items they sell. That is crap, and a waste of money.

I saw Monty Roberts years ago, and during his intermission of his show (that's what it was - a show, not training) he signed autographs. A little girl in our group went to get his autograph, but he would not give her one unless she bought his book or poster! What a rip off!

Most of the folks I see use NH techniques don't even do the activities correctly and end up with a mess in their hands. No thank you.

we used to call it "stable management".

Let's start from the beginning. Ray Hunt is the first Natural Horseman but didn't like publicity so his student John Lyons came out with books and did clinics. Pat Perelli copied John but came up with new twists, ie carrot stick and the like. Anyway NH came about because of the old Cowboy way of breaking a horse is abusive and destroys the confidence of the horse. I've heard of "cowboys" using 2x4's to beat it (undesired behavoir)out of him.
So NH is a good thing and works alot better than "breaking" a horse.
So every time you handle your horse your doing Natural Horsmanship. If you let your horse drag or be draged on the lead to the barn likewise while riding. A horse learns every time you handle it. If you let him get away with an undesired behavoir, well you Trained him that way! You should be able to lead your horse foreward, backward, left and right. Your horse should stand square in the center of the aisle while cross tied, you should be able to move him foreward, back, and away from you with a vety light touch. He should pick his feet up for you. The more control you have on the ground the better control you have in the tack.
So you see we're all Natural Horsemans, just some of us don't pay for a name or play silly games with our horses.
Now go groom your horse and make him stand where YOU want him to! (it doesn't happen overnight).

Like many of the others have mentioned. I have real issues with the way it is packaged and publicised. For me its stuff I have been doing with horses from day one when I get them to respect boundaries and be more manageable on the ground. I call it good horsemanship. I think I also loathe the evangelicalism that some parelli followers have in that what they are doing is the only way. There are many ways to skin a cat and I feel this is the same with horses on the road to success and having fun.

If you are an eventer, spend your time and money on the things that are going to make you successful, like your dressage and jumping lessons. Let Parelli and Lyons make a living on their regular customers, the scared weekend pleasure riders who dont know enough about horses to know which "trainers" are knowledgeable and trustworthy.

I am not so sure it is David's estranged uncle....thinking the chic is Karen in her previous life...thus the picture from OCET camp.

I agree with most of the above. I think a lot of training a horse comes from just commmon sense. I think the NH stuff is about commercializing horses, and what you can make from it. The stick, the rope halter...yada yada yada. You can lead everyone of my horses with a rope about thier ears, in, out, clippers, shots. It doesn't matter cause at some point or another they were trained to stand still and repspect us. I didn't do it with a special stick, or anything else, just good ole fashion language, thier lead rope and CONSISTANCY.

OCET is very commercial, we all know who they are, they are a household name. MOre power to them...they are making a great living off of it. I just don't feel it's necessary to be a good horseman.

Natural horsemanship is about using lines of pressure to communicate with the horse. Horses understand and feel pressure, the application and release of it. All OCET does is teach the basic principals. Once you know the basis of lines of pressure, everything you do with horses is seen in a different light. Some "natural horsemanship" people take it further and start to do more advanced things, but the way they teach it is just the same, using pressure to communicate. So everything beyond that is just a circus trick.

Never done it and not one of my many teachers ever mentioned natural horsemanship. My knowledge of the subject is limited to YouTube, and I love Tex! And this other guy making fun of the subject who made me cough my coffee through my nose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU

And there's Endospink with his TAP - what in the world is that all about? It looks like a Vulcan nerve pinch for horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2i3AIBMBhY

Groundwork is a fundamental part of riding.

Much of NH is simple ground work and doesn't need to be done every day for an hour before riding. I've followed Lyons for several years now. I had given up on my horse and sent him to a Lyons trainer who did only groundwork. In 30 days, I had a new horse, both on the ground and under saddle. No gimmicks, no rope halters, no sticks, no spurs or whip. I've since incorporated it into the training of any horse I've worked with and it's been great.

I suppose it's not for everyone, and every horse doesn't need it, especially if they have had correct handling from the beginning, but I have found that doing extra groundwork with my horses has helped our relationships and made it easier for them to understand what I want when in the saddle.

Wow John, congrats again on picking a discussion topic that draws a lot of input!
I'm so glad that our little bit of horsemanship was just what we needed and not a lot of the other - agree it was just the techniques for getting that horse's attention and get him focused on you! I guess it's much like that "Dog Whisperer" program on Animal Planet - love watching that - it's mostly retraining the dog owners on how to communicate and set expectations with the dog. Same kind of stuff applies to horses - like someone above said, ground manners, respect on the ground and that ride will go so much better!

Buzz, we are ROFLOAO....changing underwear...that Swedish one is the bomb! Thank you, thank you for that moment of seriousness in this very funny discussion! :)

"the scared weekend pleasure riders who dont know enough about horses to know which "trainers" are knowledgeable and trustworthy"

Parelli and things like that just aren't for me, but I wouldn't describe all their followers as scared or ignorant! I haven't got any issues with people doing NH stuff if they're doing it properly. Live and let live.

All "Natural Horsemanship" boils down to is how to use your body language, posture, etc. to communicate effectively with your horse. This is what all good trainers do, whether or not they apply the NH label to their methods. Anyone who's ever asked a horse to halt understands the basic concept: apply pressure on reins, release when horse stops. It's really not rocket science and it has always amazed me how the Parellis and Robertses of the world make the money they do selling this stuff. If you don't get it, spend time watching horses in the field. Go out and interact with them yourself -- experiment until you've figured out how to be the "herd leader" and can move the whole group around and single out horses, asking them to move away, come to you, stop, turn around, etc. Honestly, dealing on a daily basis with one horse who's really resistant to being caught will teach you more about natural horsemanship than a weekend at a Parelli clinic! It's all about patience, figuring out how they respond to your actions, and patience. Oh, and did I mention patience? (I think when all is said and done, people pay for this stuff because they think it's going to be a quick fix -- hate to disappoint but any method takes time and effort to implement properly!)

Worst case scenario: you could always take my approach and get a job at a large breeding farm. You learn pretty quickly how to be herd boss when you're hefting a 50 lb. sack of grain out through a field containing two dozen yearling fillies twice a day! ;-)

As noted above, much of what has been labled "Natural Horsemanship" is what educated riders/trainers have been doing for years, we just didn't give it a goofy name. However, I think the greater problem with all of the NH/Parrelli is it is marketed primarily to new/uneducated horse people. As a result, there are now a large number of beginners who have minimal experience who believe they can teach/train because they have watched some videos and attended a couple of clinics, yet they can barely manage riding their own horse. Additionally, the cult like following of these folks is scary. I truly believe there is something to be learned and applied from every horse sport, but there are lots of ways to achieve the same result. You have to figure out what works for you and your horse. In the bit of Parelli stuff I've observed, there is no room for flexibility. In short, there is no substitute for an educated and experienced trainer, which seems to be generally lacking in the Parrelli/NH practioner following.

I certainly think that Natural Horsemanship works, but of course (as with any equestrian-related sport) it depends entirely on the horse and human combination, and their goals.

Kerrin Koetsier
Parelli Central